How to find your mentor?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jagan Mohan KVN on June 16, 2009 at 6:57pm

My best mentor would be reading books, web articles, postings, blogs, attending conferences, sharing with colleagues, etc... All these cannot be replaced by a single person / entity.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeroen Rosink on June 16, 2009 at 11:41pm

Thanks Jagan Mohan KVN for the reply,
You mentioned that books, web articles etc cannot be replaced by a person/entity, and therefore those are your mentor. I'm looking more for a mentor as persons. Books, weblogs, articles provide you information, whether it is true or not.

A mentor as I see it can provide you with questions so you can use your gained information to shape your own context, ideas and vision. A book doesn't speak back, On forums: words are perhaps chosen wisely, only there is still the possibility of misperception.

What I learned in the last decade is that I have the ability to find, gain, read information and partly remember information. Only what is this for use if I don't know how to use it or when to use. Of course parts are always becoming part of yourselves and you will use it unintentionally. I think a mentor can is able to trigger to make your own thoughts and use the newly gained vision more efficient.

Perhaps my vision about test mentors is wrong, still I'm looking for this type of mentor because I believe it will contribute to become a better tester.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Michal Mittelmann on June 17, 2009 at 12:39am

Hi Jeroen, I think that it's only you and the experience you are exposed to that can put the theoretical information you have gained into a practical use.
Yes, it's good to share information with those who can share context with you (colleagues, friends,..) and I do it a lot. But I wouldn't expect anyone to tell me what's the right thing to do. It's always your situation, problem, etc. so you have to decide and act, try and fail, learn ...and try again.
After all, I guess that's how "mentors" are made.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeroen Rosink on June 20, 2009 at 11:09am

Hello Michal,
Thanks for your response and sharing your thought about this. I agree with you that it is up to me to put theoretical information in practical use.
Related to the statement: "But I wouldn't expect anyone to tell me what's the right thing to do". Unfortunatly there are a lot of people who are telling me what the right thing to do would be. Like organizations who tells me to test according ISTQB. What I'm searching for and that is what I believe a good mentor can do is making me think about items that matter.

Your right that I'm searching for someone who tells me what to do, only this is more likely meant in terms of guidance instead of this is how it goes and you should do it. I believe that if I'm not able to make up my own thoughts then I'm not able to share it and to use it.

Triggering to think can be something different then telling what to do. A person can tell me how to test. A person can also make me think what I value in testing and guide me with his/her vision. That vision can be true or not. I think a good mentor doesn't tell me what is good or bad, true or not, it helps me to form my own thoughts about this.

As you already mentioned, there is a process of deciding, acting, try and fail, learn and try again. This can be alone or with colleagues, friends. Exactly therefore I'm trying to find a mentor, who takes me along on this journey and occasionally be my mirror. As it might speed up the growth with respect to doing it alone.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Pradeep Soundararajan on June 17, 2009 at 8:36pm

Curiosity will lead you to a mentor and the right mentor would identify you as his Mentee. I believe in it because I have mentors whom I found by my curiosity and I am a mentor to others whose curiosity impresses me.

That's one way of modeling the mind and being happy of having found the answer to your question. However, there could be more models that might exist and might overlap on the above model.

Mentoring is easy, demanding, challenging, life changing, and added responsibility in life. I am responsible to my mentees to help them with latest information, updates and ideas. That demands me to learn, be on the edge. In the process of mentoring I better myself. Mentees aren't the receiving end always. Mentees, are responsible to value the time the mentor is spending for them. That respect of mentor's time would by itself help the Mentee grow more respectful.

- Do you, member, have some experience with finding a good mentor?

I wrote an e-mail to James Bach about 4 and half years back asking him to be my mentor and guru. He challenged me with questions, testing puzzle before he starts respecting me. I loved his extreme high standards of evaluating to accept me as his student.

He then introduced me to Michael Bolton and that was 2+2 test before Michael could accept me as his student.

Together they introduced me to the world. I ensured they dont spend too much time introducing me to the world by demonstration of my work.

- How did you approach such a process, how do you maintain it?

I am philosophical about this. It ain't a process. Or maybe, I dont understand what you meant by a process.

- How did you find the proper mentor? Is there some indirect, direct mentoring, informal/formal mentoring?

A proper mentor to me is one who embodies qualities that the world merely talks about but does nothing about it. James, Michael and others whom I consider as a mentor definitely have immense qualities that inspire me.

I dont know what kind of mentoring I have been receiving from them but I would say I dont know how to put it in words. If I would want to, I can say, "Life changing mentoring" is what they probably have been doing consciously or sub consciously.

- How to identify the level of mentoring you need?

If you decide to grow along with the mentor, you'd be receiving mentoring at all levels you need.

- What if mentors are not willing to spend time?

Read Ekalavya - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekalavya

James once received about 18 reminders from me when he could not spend the time and my self assumed job was to ensure my e-mail remains on at least the bottom of his major priority list of actions.

I am my own good mentor today and that's what my mentors helped me to be. Of course, they shall remain as a mentor of my mentor :)

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeroen Rosink on June 17, 2009 at 10:40pm

Thanks Pradeep,
This was what I'm looking for, getting confirmation the my thought about needing a mentor was a correct one. It confirms also what I am looking for in a mentor. As you mentioned "Mentoring is easy, demanding, challenging, life changing, and added responsibility in life" then I can imagine that for a mentee it is the same only instead easy, it might be hard.

If I understand you correctly choosing a mentor is a fragile process, you have to be careful who you choose and also when you choose it. When you managed that you will be able to get to the next level which values more then any certification.

Although I’m sort of a mentor for my colleagues; I know I want to learn more for them as well to guide them. To do this I need to make the next step and find me myself a mentor. Out of curiosity: are mentors rude? Can you fail a mentor and is it finished?

Related to you remark about:: " It ain't a process. Or maybe, I dont understand what you meant by a process" I think you pin-pointed here the situation, there might be an approach, steps are not defined and therefore cannot be a process. In my opinion it might be a process as you showed me which possible steps can be taken:
1. be ware of your own knowledge skills
2. identify people who have something to say and might have more to show
3. get known to those people
4. trigger them to challenge you
5. be open to their suggestions
6. perhaps you will be challenged on regular basis or not

Thanks Pradeep with sharing this with me. Always open for suggestions, directions and questions.
regards,
Jeroen

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeroen Rosink on June 20, 2009 at 10:55am

Hello Pradeep,
As you see, your comments kept me thinking. I'm still struggling with how to find the mentor. You were telling who your mentors are/were and give some leads how they helped you. Somehow I cannot believe this is a random thing. Is it possible to ask a person to be him/her mentor? Isn't the chance on rejection huge? How can you increase the chance to be heard?
I can imagine that you, James, Michael et al get the question to be a mentor every week, if not every day. It would be a day time job to fulfill this demand.
This made me think about recognition, to get the requested in the way it is intended it might help that a certain level of recognition is created. If this is so, how can this be reached? If not, is there something I'm missing?

For other readers/members: Can you confirm what Pradeep is teaching me? Do you also have a similar question like I have in this posting? Can you guide me also?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Michel Kraaij on June 20, 2009 at 3:03pm

Like Pradeep said: "Curiosity will lead you to a mentor and the right mentor would identify you as his Mentee". So the key to one of the ways is "ask the right questions". Try to trigger the person you are communicating with in discussing out-of-the-box. Asking for the obvious won't motivate either one of you. Asking about the not-so-obvious choices will lead, in my opinion, to the best discussions. Will this lead to your mentor? Maybe, maybe not. Nevertheless, it has got you thinking... and maybe even learning... and that's what it's all about.

PS. Asking this question is one that got me thinking... maybe even learning... are you my mentor? ;-)

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Pradeep Soundararajan on June 22, 2009 at 7:55am

@Jeroen,

As you see, your comments kept me thinking. I'm still struggling with how to find the mentor.

Its simple. Do you know a list of people whom you want to be mentored by?
Are you willing to write down and send to them what you mean when you say "mentoring"?
I want to know what you think is the difference between coaching and mentoring?

Somehow I cannot believe this is a random thing. Is it possible to ask a person to be him/her mentor? Isn't the chance on rejection huge? How can you increase the chance to be heard?

First, its not random. Second, rejection is possible at any time for any person. By being yourselves, your chances may increase.

I can imagine that you, James, Michael et al get the question to be a mentor every week, if not every day. It would be a day time job to fulfill this demand.

Yeah, I do get some and maybe James and Michael get more than me. I try to help people as much as possible. I have a criteria - If people come looking for /ready made solutions/ to their problems, I do not honor them. I appreciate anyone who is willing to put in the effort to learn and enjoy the process of learning.

However, I do reply to as many e-mails as possible with my solutions to it because it helps me practicing thinking to various contexts, I have not been exposed to yet.

This made me think about recognition, to get the requested in the way it is intended it might help that a certain level of recognition is created. If this is so, how can this be reached? If not, is there something I'm missing?

I am seeing you as someone who is serious about learning to test better. That's just enough for any person to mentor you. Plus, you write a blog http://testconsultant.blogspot.com and share your thoughts and ideas. That's good. You also write in forums like these

I would suggest anyone to not do any tasks with an intention to gain recognition. It is tricky, if you want to get closer to it, it moves farther. Maybe it works different for other people that I dont know.

For other readers/members: Can you confirm what Pradeep is teaching me? Do you also have a similar question like I have in this posting? Can you guide me also?

That's interesting. I wasn't teaching anything but maybe you learned something from it, which means - You can learn from anyone without they consciously teaching you anything. The power of human brain depends on the soul exercising it.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeroen Rosink on June 23, 2009 at 11:09pm

@Pradeep:
I want to know what you think is the difference between coaching and mentoring
I though about this question for 2 days when driving in my car. There might be no difference between them. It is the value you add to those terms. I think a coach can be anyone in your environment who is willing to listen to you and able to guide you to structure your thoughts. He might come up with advices which might help you in certain situations.
I see a mentor as a person who is not able to guide you, he also understands the field of work you are in to and is able to to guide you to create your own thoughts.

The similarity in this is:
- both guide you
- both are helping you in an objective manner
- both are letting you make your own decisions
The difference could be:
- a mentor has experience and skills in the same field of business and even a bit beyond, the questions from a mentor can help you to make the step a bit faster
- a coach can also be a person without any knowledge of your field of expertise

This still leaves the space that a few coaches together can be your mentor.
I would suggest anyone to not do any tasks with an intention to gain recognition. It is tricky, if you want to get closer to it, it moves farther. Maybe it works different for other people that I dont know.
Your right with the part about recognition, it is something like respect, you earn it.
This is another wise lesson. If I would translate it then it would be something like this: Don't try to learn faster then you are able to handle. Don't try to proof by pushing; it is perhaps the first signals you are not able to handle information or discussions. Observe and learn, there will be a time when you understand and can answer your selves.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeroen Rosink on June 26, 2009 at 8:52am

To give more understaning about the difference between mentor vs coach Keith Rosen posted an interesting article about this Coach vs. Mentor: What's the Difference? The main difference according this article is:
The coaching relationship is built on choice rather than necessity. Often, the mentoring relationship is need-driven rather than driven by choice.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Shrini Kulkarni on June 22, 2009 at 7:31pm

Joroen,

I reached James and Michael in slightly different route than Pradeep, I reached Michael first when I was in toronto and we met face to face and then on started exchanging mails. Then through Michael I was personally introduced to James. My interactions with James in the Rapid software Testing workshop, probably brought me closer to James. Then on continued 1:1 interactions with James, made me to establish a mentor-mentee relationship.

Key thing in finding a mentor is finding someone who more knowledgeable in a common ideology or value system or someone whose value system or philosophy you are willing to accept and follow.

Steps in finding a mentor ...

1. Look inword - what your personal ideology, personal value system and philosophy
2. Look outwards and around to seek someone who aligns with (1) and who appears to be more knowledgeable or someone who can possibly know more about the subject than you
3. Establish the relationship with the selected mentor as in (2)

As it happens with people like James - you got to qualify and impress your guru ... I would agree that you need to have a human willing to help and coach as a mentor - mere books can not be mentor

will share more thoughts later ... hope this helps

Shrini

▶ Reply to This

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• Next ›
• Page